022 Montlick Presents: Women in Law

VERONICA: Hey. Hey. Welcome to Lawyers in the House with Montlick. I’m your host, Veronica Waters. So excited to be here with you for a very special episode of Lawyers in the House. Today we are talking about women in law.

VERONICA: Fast forward from the 19th to the 21st century. Where is the legal lay of the land today as we sit here in 2022? Well, as of 2021, women make up 55% of law school students, and in 2022, 38% of all lawyers are women.

VERONICA: First we’re gonna start off with Jennifer Fleming, who’s been practicing law for 15 years.

JENNIFER: Yes.

VERONICA: Allyssa White, an 11-year veteran of the law.

ALYSSA: Hello.

VERONICA: Coming up next, we have Michelle Mumpower, who has been an attorney for seven years.

VERONICA: Nives Juric had a career in law before she became an attorney seven years ago. And we also have Cate Powell, who has been an attorney for, I wanna say, six years now? Seven years!

CATE: 2015, yeah.

MARGARET: So, when I was in graduate school for my counseling degree, I knew then that I was gonna become a counselor, but I also knew that I wasn’t necessarily gonna stick with that forever. So, when I was 35, I went back to law school and then I, you know, finished law school and passed the BAR. And then I continued to work in counseling for a little while and then after that, I started working at Montlick and Associates.

VERONICA: You were a licensed professional counselor?

What inspired you to leave that field and go into this one?

MARGARET: I just wanted to do more than what I was doing. I’m, by nature… I think I’m somewhat of a helper. Or, I like to help resolve problems. And I wasn’t necessarily resolving things at the pace I would enjoy. So, I wanted to do more.

NIVES: So earlier on, in earlier shows, I think I mentioned that both of my parents practiced law in another country. And when we came to America, you know, they weren’t able to… Their schooling wasn’t validated. They weren’t able to, you know, start from scratch and go to law school and pass the BAR. So, the idea of law in the house and how we were raised was very important.

VERONICA: Is becoming a lawyer the best decision you ever made, Alyssa?

VERONICA: Michelle, talk about how you got to this moment.

CATE: So, my father is an attorney. I’m very close with my dad. He never encouraged me to go to law school. And a lot of us will say that – most lawyers or judges will say “don’t do it.”

CATE: No, but he… it wasn’t a whole follow in my footsteps kind of thing. But I did grow up at his firm – filing. He and I would talk for hours about cases and how interesting his work is. He’s taught me a lot of things also about work-life balance, which is sometimes rare for attorneys.

CATE: And I will shadow again what some of the others have said on stage. Love my career now, and as a female, it has really taught me what I’m capable of. On a weekly basis I’m challenged…

JENNIFER: Yes, absolutely.

VERONICA: Tell me about it.

JENNIFER: When I first started practicing law, I was thrown into a workers’ compensation court to help out another attorney who couldn’t be there that day.

JENNIFER: I would say sometimes it depends. It can be both. It can be one or the other. And you can sometimes tell by the way people are speaking to you as well. Now I’ve been practicing a while and it can still happen. So, I’m not green anymore.

VERONICA: I saw Michelle and Alyssa nodding.

ALYSSA: Which part? The being young or being a woman?

VERONICA: What jumps out at you when you think about these instances?

ALYSSA: I think it’s different. I think we have it a little different. We have a double whammy as opposed to someone, you know, a younger man coming out of law school – it may not present the same way.

VERONICA: Michelle, you were going to say something?

MICHELLE: Yeah, I definitely think it comes across, you know, like Alyssa and Jen were saying, not as much as the young, but still being called by a lot of the older male adjusters and the attorneys, not so much the mediation part now – but you know, still trying to prove ourselves.

VERONICA: The terms of endearment.

ALYSSA: That’s really offensive actually.

MICHELLE: Yeah, because the undertone of how it’s being said. You know, I’ve had several opposing counsel – and a lot of them I’m now close with. I feel like I’ve had to – I’ve proven myself because I’ve had to prove myself – that no longer use that terminology. But it’s a lot of times, “oh, sweetheart, I’ve been doing this a lot longer than you, so I think I’ll take it from here and I know what I’m doing.”

VERONICA: What do y’all do in those moments? Like, do you say, “No, sugar, I got it,” or like, what do you do?

ALYSSA: I don’t remember experiencing that in law school, specifically. And it’s certainly not like that in our firm.

MICHELLE: I think for me -I went to a private law school. And the experience was more from the professors. The male professors were more of, you know, we have you read cases and then talk about the cases in law school. And you’re just drilled with questions. And it more so came from – felt the difference of being a female student versus a male student was that the male professors were more about, well that’s not the correct answer – read it again, let’s talk about it again tomorrow.

VERONICA: Is one of the things that you’re taught in law school as a woman, how you have to look? How much focus is put on that?

JENNIFER: I was going to say, not in law school as much for me, but I took a course.

VERONICA: But maybe when you start practicing?

JENNIFER: Yes.

VERONICA: Okay.

JENIFER: I took a course, or a seminar I should say, on it really had to do with juries and how they respond to different appearances and colors. But it really applies more so to women than men. If you think about it, men just decide what color suit and tie to put on. Women have to decide, do I wear my hair in a ponytail today?

VERONICA: Does anybody have to mute her personal style? Any of you have to change the way that you present work versus personal life?

VERONICA: I’m thinking if you go bare faced, somebody’s going to look down on you for that, right? But then if you put on, if you put on too many eyelashes or whatever, the mascara is too heavy or the lipstick, as you said, too bright.

ALYSSA: Well, and we’re already trying to make sure that we’re being heard and our clients are being represented. And so I think the last thing any of us would want to do is distract from that. Whether it’s too much or not enough, or too short or too long, or pants or whatever, we want to focus on the client and the result that we’re trying to achieve.

CATE: And I would just say briefly, it would be nice if there wasn’t as much thought that had to be put into it because our focus really is on the mental and the strategy and the case and the law instead of as female – female attorneys, it’s the appearance and how that is going to impact. My philosophy is always just try to keep it as simple as possible and as professional as possible.

JENNIFER: That’s really good advice, Cate.

VERONICA: Michelle had a firsthand experience of what it’s like to walk into a room and be told, I can’t… basically, I can’t hear you right now because of what you look like.

MICHELLE: I did. And it was actually my first year of law school.

VERONICA: What do people say to you on a maybe near daily basis? Or what’s the… do you hear something as a woman in the legal field? That jumps out at you and makes you wonder, would you say that to a guy?

VERONICA: And it’s 2022.

ALYSSA: Yes.

VERONICA: Is anybody shocked that we are still hearing these questions?

JENNIFER: Yes and no, I mean.

VERONICA: Yes and no?

JENNIFER: I mean, you’re shocked because it is 2022. Why are we still doing this? And no, because that’s unfortunately just how it is. That’s kind of how it is.

VERONICA: Not much has changed since the justice wrote in the 19th century that a woman’s place is being a wife and a mother.

MICHELLE: I think it’s more so just kind of figuring out the balance of how everything works. I know I always tell people you can’t be 100% for anybody else unless you’re 100% for yourself.

MARGARET: Definitely. I do. I knew that it was going to be challenging and it has been. I also knew being a female was going to, I guess, affect the way that you’re perceived, but you know I’ve always been persistent.

MARGARET: Do you feel like you have to bring something extra?

MARGARET: Yes, for sure.

VERONICA: Yeah. In what way?

MARGARET: You have to appear confident. Because if they see that you’re not, they will take an opportunity to take advantage.

VERONICA: I think somebody mentioned earlier impostor syndrome, which is this thing where you wonder whether despite all of your smarts and all of your accomplishments, all your achievements, all your education, there’s this niggling voice that says, do I really belong here? Can I really do this job? Who’s experienced that?

ALYSSA: Back in law school, I would say.

CATE: And you were talking about how the male students percentage wise speak more than females, and it makes sense… and it makes sense to have impostor syndrome if you look at kind of the demographics of maybe most of the professors are male- white male. Most of the attorneys at that time or the older attorneys are white male.

JENNIFER: I feel like women feel like they have to earn it more. So even when we started doing Lawyers in the House, at first, I got really nervous. And I thought, can I be doing this? And then I said, Jen, you’ve been practicing 15 years.

VERONICA: Absolutely. You brought up something that triggered my memory and I had made a note here about this Harvard Business Review Study that they did about 5 years ago, and they found that the male justices interrupt the female justices three times as often as they interrupt each other during oral arguments.

CATE: Mansplaining.

VERONICA: Mansplaining. Let’s talk about why where you work matters because Alyssa and I have talked in the past. You know from experience. Not every firm is going to sort of embrace you in all facets of your life the way Montlick has.

ALYSSA: Yeah, yeah… I mean it is because you know… you know one of the things is like when I had my first child I remember going to my boss and saying like I don’t think I can do this. Like I don’t want him to be in day care 6 to 6. I want to spend time with my child. That’s why I’m having kids and I remember him saying just do your thing like just do your thing and this is it will be fine. We’ll work it out. And just to have that support, you know, is just, you know, I don’t think it’s matched anywhere else. Yeah.

ALYSSA: Yes.

VERONICA: Yes?

MICHELLE: I mean, I think the firm… they definitely take it a step further. I remember the one thing that stuck out to me the most was I had been there for about 6 months and our boss was kind of coming around because he makes his rounds to say hi to everybody and he actually… they –  all of our colleagues and all of our managing attorneys and staff –  take the time to get to know you.

VERONICA: Sisterhood of the legal briefs so to speak.

VERONICA: Welcome back to Lawyers in the House, a very special episode, as we talk about women in law with 6 dynamic attorneys from Montlick Injury Attorneys sitting next to me.

MARGARET: Yes. I do feel trusted at Montlick. When I initially went to work there, I was extremely pleased, we’ll say, with all of the camaraderie that I received, you know. I mean, I could take any case or any situation to someone else.

VERONICA: I have heard that before that Montlick is like this collective of brilliant legal minds that you can always bounce things off of, no matter the gender of the lawyer who’s there, right? Everyone is like equally welcoming equally helpful.

JENNIFER: I think it’s important just to have allies in general too. I mean, because what if you do go into a room and it’s all women, you want them to be your allies as well. But of course, you always want another person who might bring a different perspective and help you with your case. And I was told when I first started practicing, if you’re not asking questions, you’re not doing something right.

MICHELLE: Yeah, I can recall a few times. You know, one specifically I was in a mediation in a very large settlement case. And myself, another male attorney in our firm, and the other opposing counsel was a male and female duo as well.

ALYSSA: I remember specifically one time where a client was questioning something that I had done or a decision that I had made and I remember our boss Alan saying, she speaks for the firm. We support what she has said. And it was, you know, it was a complicated matter and, you know, it wasn’t pretty, so to speak.

VERONICA: How do you distinguish yourselves?

CATE: I would say, and again, something that my father taught me is that it’s… so much comes down to the relationship building because you’ll find that even though Atlanta seems like a big city, the legal community in Atlanta and in Georgia is relatively small, and so you’re going to deal with those same attorneys, whether it’s other plaintiff’s attorneys, defense counsel, adjusters, whatever job you’re going into, you’re going to deal with the same people for years and years.

JENNIFER: I think joining organizations too that help that. And having a good support system like we talked about- at Montlick like they really support you. And when you have that support, you know that you have the resources to make your mark and to really help clients. But joining organizations that interest you and that are in your part of the law or more specifically, women’s organizations because a lot of these legal organizations have then a smaller group that are for women.

NIVES: I would also piggyback on that.

VERONICA: Do you have to love it? That’s a good question. Do you have to love it?

NIVES: I don’t know how you can do what we do…

VERONICA:  Let’s talk about the advantages. We’ve talked about the challenges. We’ve talked about stepping into the boy’s club. Let’s talk about advantages to being a woman in law.

VERONICA: Who’s landed a case because a client specifically said, I want a woman as my attorney? Jennifer Michelle, both of you?

JENNIFER: Yes, I’ve had some beauty salon cases.

VERONICA: And how did the case turn out?

JENNIFER: It turned out well for the client. I mean, she was still injured, so you know there’s no amount of money that… but it was a good result for her.

MARGARET: I’ve definitely had my share of cases where I think even males in the office thought maybe Margaret could handle this a little easier than what I’m looking at due to the photos and you know the damage that was occurred at the waxing salon or nail salon. Dog bites, things like that.

MARGARET: I think there’s more to it. Sometimes when you’re speaking with the clients, you ask different questions because you’re a female, and it’s a female issue.

VERONICA: Oh, you wanted to say something Nives, go ahead.

NIVES: I just wanted to add that a big part of our job is talking to our clients about the things that they’re going through.

VERONICA: So, is there some quality that when you were starting out in your careers, maybe you didn’t realize was as important or would be as important as you’ve now realized it is?

VERONICA: When it comes to advocating for your client, if you’re litigating a case, does being a woman help somehow?

MICHELLE: I think it does in certain situations. And Cate and I were actually just talking about this earlier in our radio segment. A little bit before.

VERONICA: You have to, it sounds like… is there this balance walking that you have to do sort of? You’ve got to be assertive, but just the right amount of assertive. And not too assertive. And you have to smile, but not too much, right? Am I right?

VERONICA: You can lead with empathy, lead with kindness.

MICHELLE: I’ll take that one.

VERONICA: Tell it, remind us quickly, Michelle, what that case was about and what that meant to you.

MICHELLE: Oh, gosh, here we go. That was a difficult case for me. Sorry, I’m she’s one of my clients that we exchange Christmas cards. She sends me my daughter, birthday card every year. We’re still very close.

VERONICA: I love hearing the stories of the successes and how empowered you’ve been – Alyssa talked earlier in actually, I think everybody has said Montlick empowers you to excel and to speak for the firm and they know you know that Montlick has got your back.

NIVES: Absolutely. I think much of what we’re talking about on this show is the challenges, obstacles and some very unique circumstances being a woman in the field that you mentioned very early on is only 38% populated by women. That is what you said at the very beginning.

VERONICA: Yes, and just look at the inroads women continue to make in the legal field. 20 years ago, women just 29% of the legal field; now almost at 40%.

JENNIFER: Mine would be you can never be overprepared. I clerked for a judge, a female. She was very well respected in the community, and I learned a lot from her. And I had prepared and gone into her chambers to discuss her cases coming up. And she asked a question that I was not prepared for.

VERONICA: Margaret.

MARGARET: Yes.

VERONICA: Advice for your younger self as a young law student?

MARGARET: Let’s see.

VERONICA: Alyssa?

ALYSSA: So, in law school, they kind of portray a lawyer who drinks heavily and is in the library from sun up to sundown and just these cutthroat environments. And I think I would have told my younger self, you can do law well, but you can also be a really good, healthy person at the same time.

VERONICA: Cate.

CATE: I would tell myself and tell a 1L student that this career path that you were getting on right now will teach you what you’re capable of.

VERONICA: Fall down 9 times, get up ten. Yeah. Michelle?

MICHELLE: I would say telling a 1L student, you know, finding that mentorship and that support group. It’s really important to, you know, especially as a young attorney, you don’t really know for me. You don’t know what area of law you want to do.

VERONICA: Nives, what you know now, that you wish your young law student self had known then.

VERONICA: Dreams do come true. And that is how you do a Montlick closing argument.